Questions for Dr Loganathan Part 2

Questions for Dr.Loganathan- 2

Ramesh’s second Question:

QUOTE

However, unlike the European scholars, I assume your primary goal in life is to attain the "Siva jnana Bodham" of Meykandhar. Yet from your efforts in trying to prove the Sumerian orgins of Tamil, I can't help but see a similarity between your efforts and that of many past and present day Brahmins of India. It looks like both of you are obsessed with the correct pronunciation, origination of sounds etc , but for different reasons. One of the criticisms that I have about the Brahmins in Indian history is that they spent too much time on vedic rituals, intellectual pursuits and metaphysical day-dreaming and spent less time on the socio-political issues of Bharata. Are you not also indulging in the same type of action when you speak about Tamil/Sumerian/ etc and not see your views being misused for the further division of the Hindu society in Tamil Nadu by those who are not that dedicated to "Siva jnana bodham of Meykandhar" as yourself?

UNQUOTE

I take it that you seem to think that I, like the Brahmins am simply speculative indulge in vain philosophical pursuits, day-dreaming and not at all concerned with socio-political matters. Let me now respond to this first point.

Reply:

Partly true – very early I avoided being involved in politics. I am basically a philosophically oriented individual but NOT without interest in socio-political matters. As part of my contribution to social issues I have developed Agamic Psychology as a field of Hermeneutic Science with Access Tests and which are in use in counselling in some parts of Malaysia. I have also practiced what I call Hermeneutic Counselling using the Access Tests only that now I am retired but help out many others in the application of these Access Tests. The Agamic Psychology I have developed is essentially a revival of the ancient psychology of Tamil Siddhas and you can see many essays on it at the following Google Site:

https://sites.google.com/site/ulagansessays/

Now as part of this Agamic Psychology I have developed what I call Hermeneutic Semiotics, a systematic way of analysing metaphysical dreams and with that understand what I call Icon Thinking so central in Hindu life where various deities are worshipped . On the basis of such studies I have written many commentaries to the Bakti literature of Azwars and Nayanmars, You can read some of them at:

http://arutkural.tripod.com/tmcampus/tmtopics.html

Based upon such studies I have been conducting classes for the interested for the last 30 years or so and now I have created a number of youths who will continue such services to Hindu public and all in Penang where I live

Now as an interesting example of Hermeneutic Semiotics as applied to Dream Analysis you can read the following series that I wrote a few years ago on my own dreams and which also bring out the power of Icon Thinking:

https://sites.google.com/site/ulagansessays/dreams--metaphysical-1

Having said all these my passion remains metaphysics and here I admire Meykandar immensely for it is he who developed Metaphysics as the most inclusive Hermeneutic Science a feat achieved by no one including Husserl Heidegger Gadamer and many others who wanted to bring philosophy as a field of rigorous science.

Meykandar in bringing Metaphysics into Hermeneutic Science, the most inclusive one, has achieved something really fantastic – bring the whole of religious life into the field of science but certainly Hermeneutic Science. The Sumerian Suruppak laid the foundation by saying: Nig.nam kalkal-in nig.e me kalkal: Ta. nigaznam kalkalyin nikavee mey kalkal: If you study what happens around you will learn great TRUTHS( my translation). It is this orientation that led Tolkaappiyar to study natural as well as composed speech – language( Vazakku and CeyyuL) to detail out the essences of existence and which later led Meykandar take the World as a whole a Text to establish Metaphysical Truths.

In doing this Meykandar does not take the Agamas Vedas and so forth as authoritative. Metaphysics as the most inclusive HS does not have authorities except the authority of TRUTH.

On the basis of my understanding of Meykandar’s Botham I have written my own metaphysical treatises both in Tamil and English by way of furthering this bringing of religious life into the field science albeit Hermeneutic Science.

See:

https://sites.google.com/site/ulagansbooks/home

Now in such endeavours I open up religious life to all and in that I am no way to be compared to the Brahmins with their caste exclusiveness, ritualistic preoccupations etc. Remember the Brahmins claim that only the Brahmins have access to the Vedas and that only the Vedas have the redeeming Brahmanjaanam and hence all have to depend on the Brahmins for this redeeming Jaanam. To me this is pure nonsense and an attempt to enslave the Hindus. The redeeming Sivanjaanam is already in the soul of all and one can clarify and enjoy by analysing the World as a TEXT along the lines of HS

Ramesh’s next question:

QUOTE

I have read your arguments where you try unsuccessfully to separate your studies from the Dravidian party ideology of Tamilnadu. But I see you and the dravidian ideologues in TN share the same hatred for the Brahmins. Scholarship has a social consequence and are you sensitive to that aspect of your studies ?. After all " anbe Sivam " (Shiva is love) must have lots of meaning to a Shiva baktha like yourself. I just want to point out that there are many Siva bakthas in the Brahmin community as well and are you being fair to them when you don't miss an opportunity to speak about the evils of Brahmanism in so many internet forums?

UNQUOTE

More than ten years ago when I entered the cyberspace as a member of Tamil net, there were nasty battles with the Dravidian atheistic members and many Tamil Muslims where they said that in the Tamil forum I have no rights to talk about the bakti literature etc. Now the tide is quite different and many Tamil scholars appreciate my studies of Sacred Tamil. But the Great Dravidian Movement has many other facets and the rationalist aspect is just one of them. I was for many years the Secretary General of World Saiva Counsel from which I later dropped out for many reasons. I am working for a Neo Bakti Movement and which is also a part of this Great Dravidian Movement.

Now yes, I am aware my writings are beginning to have widespread influence over the Tamil community not only in TN but also all over the world. I hope there will be great renaissance among the Dravidian folks by the recognition that they are the descendents of the Sumerians who developed the first literary culture in the world and that many aspects of modern culture are in fact their contributions. I hope with this realization they will emerge from the various kinds of historical humiliations and marginalisation they have suffered in the past by the twisted and racially biased history of Indologists both Western and Indian

Yes I don’t deny I am very critical of Brahmanism and write in many forums against it. I want to recover the pure Agamism with its OPENNESS so that metaphysical or religious life is NOT denied for anyone.

Here I must also mention that I have studied Rig Veda and many other texts in Sk and where I have tried to show that Rigkrit(Sanskrit) is NOT IndoAryan at all but a Dravidian language, just another variant of Sumerian the Archaic Tamil, This will show that many the Brahmin views about Vedas being Syambu, apurushaya and so forth are great lies and that Vedas are simply human compositions just like Tevaram Divvya Prabantam etc

I hope this will diffuse the Brahmin arrogance and transform them into good natured ordinary human beings just like others.

Now if a person becomes a Siva Bakta, then like Sambantar he is an Adyar and no more a Brahmin, a tag that comes along with still clinging to VarNa Dharma. Any one still attached to VarNa Dharma cannot be a Siva Bakta or for that matter any Bakta at all.

20-2-11

akandabaratam] Re: Questions for Dr.Loganathan- 2

Tuesday, February 22, 2011 2:28 AM

From:

"mrithak" <Paangloss@aol.com>

To:

akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com

Dear Dr.Loganathan,

You wrote:

<<< I take it that you seem to think that I, like the Brahmins am simply speculative indulge in vain philosophical pursuits, day-dreaming and not at all concerned with socio-political matters. Let me now respond to this first point.>>>

I am yet to form an opinion on that. Sure, I have heard you speak against Brahminism and the Brahmins. That is a very easy thing to do in today's socio-political climate of India. It is even more easier if one is situated outside India.

<<< Partly true â€" very early I avoided being involved in politics. I am basically a philosophically oriented individual but NOT without interest in socio-political matters. As part of my contribution to social issues I have developed Agamic Psychology as a field of Hermeneutic Science with Access Tests and which are in use in counselling in some parts of Malaysia. I have also practiced what I call Hermeneutic Counselling using the Access Tests only that now I am retired but help out many others in the application of these Access Tests. The Agamic Psychology I have developed is essentially a revival of the ancient psychology of Tamil Siddhas and you can see many essays on it at the following Google Site: >>>

Thank you for your honesty. Like I assumed (and you admit) you are more of a philosophically inclined being (perhaps like the ancient Brahmins ?). I fail to understand how one can avoid politics and still have an interest in socio-political matters. Could it be that your reluctance to understand the socio-political repercussions of your philosophical musings putting you in a disadvantage in grasping the sociological consequences of your philosophical studies ?.

I understand that it is hard to separate one's philosophical understanding with the socio-politiocal realities around us. But in my case, my spiritual/philosophical understanding is a personal matter for me and I rarely speak about it. But I am open and vocal about the socio-political realities of India and am ready to join hands with anyone who wants to improve it in some form or another.

Thank you for pointing me to your essays at the google site. As I have said earlier, I have read many of them and find delight in reading your views on many meta-physical questions. But your metaphysical musings are not part of my concerns for the most part, except those that make claims about the Dravidian race etc. The reason I decided to ask you some questions in the first place is not to question your metaphysical understanding but to get a better grasp of "motive" behind your socio-political claims pertaining to India.

<<< More than ten years ago when I entered the cyberspace as a member of Tamil net, there were nasty battles with the Dravidian atheistic members and many Tamil Muslims where they said that in the Tamil forum I have no rights to talk about the bakti literature etc. Now the tide is quite different and many Tamil scholars appreciate my studies of Sacred Tamil. But the Great Dravidian Movement has many other facets and the rationalist aspect is just one of them. I was for many years the Secretary General of World Saiva Counsel from which I later dropped out for many reasons. I am working for a Neo Bakti Movement and which is also a part of this Great Dravidian Movement. >>>

I am glad to hear this from you and I fully approve of your right to " interpret " (Hermeneutic) the Bakthi literature. But I part ways when you use the phrase the " Great Dravidian Movement " unless you can point me to such claims in the Bakthi literature. Please note I am also considered a person from the Dravidian country and was born of the "so called" Kshathriya lineage.

As I understand it, it was Adi Sankaraacharya who first seem to have come up with the word " Dravida ". Is there the use of the word " Dravida" prior to Sancarachaarya's usage ?. I also want to point out that the origins of the Dravidian movement in the 20th century is strictly the invention of the British colonialists and their Christian missionary stooges, for their divide and rule colonial strategy. Do you deny that ?. Was there any Dravidian movement from the time of Sankara's usage of the word "Dravida" till the early 20th century ?.

It doesn't make sense to me to see Bakthi literature as a pre-cursor to the Dravidian political movement at all. I see the bakthi movement as an effort to be more inclusive to make the highest ideals of "jnanam" accessible to all Hindus. I see Buddha doing the same. So there is a long line of traditions within Bharata that makes the effort to be more inclusive than some of the Brahmanical spiritual traditions of exclusivity.

I am aware of the Dravidian language family as the linguists will have us believe and I can accept that. In order to address the issue of Dravidian language family you would have to reply to my response for " questions for Dr.Loganathan – 1 ".

<<< Now yes, I am aware my writings are beginning to have widespread influence over the Tamil community not only in TN but also all over the world. I hope there will be great renaissance among the Dravidian folks by the recognition that they are the descendents of the Sumerians who developed the first literary culture in the world and that many aspects of modern culture are in fact their contributions. I hope with this realization they will emerge from the various kinds of historical humiliations and marginalisation they have suffered in the past by the twisted and racially biased history of Indologists both Western and Indian >>>

Since you are aware of the influence (negative ?) of your writings on those Tamilians who doesn't take the pains to understand these issues ( perhaps don't have the time), I would not use phrases like " Dravidian folks" because they are nothing but subliminal divisive messages. Perhaps you are not being aware of this since you are a Shaiva philosopher not inclined to political thinking as you have admitted.

I request you to be more careful and not use expressions like " Dravidian folks ". I recall you brushing aside the science of "genetics" when one of the members of the IndiaArcheology forum asked you about it. Can genetics prove the existence of a Dravidian race ?. How can you say " Dravidian folks " when there is no such thing.

So far from your replies, I see two important issues that need further investigation .
1)Your claims about "Hermeneutic Science" and "Evolutionary Lingusitics " are very speculative. Please respond to my reply to your post " questions for Dr.Loganathan – 1 ".

2)You seem to be mistaking the Bakthi movement as Dravidian . What is it's basis ?. Has any Bakthi movement literature speak about Dravidian culture separate from the cultural ethos of Bharata ?. If so, please provide me with those references. I am aware of the "exclusive" practices of the Brahminical traditions and like yourself, I reject them. But from time immemorial, the brahmanical traditions are part and parcel of Bharata. If you read the Buddhist Pali canon, you would see Lord Buddha speaking about the need to become the real " Brahmin". It is fine by me If you think that agamism is a distinct spiritual path that is not contaminated by brahmanical conditioning. But it is going too far to separate Brahmins and Brahminism from the cultural/spiritual traditions of Bharata. In my view the evidence is severely lacking.

Thanks,

Ramesh

Reply to Ramesh further questions as follows

QUOTE

As I understand it, it was Adi Sankaraacharya who first seem to have come up with the word " Dravida ". Is there the use of the word " Dravida" prior to Sancarachaarya's usage ?. I also want to point out that the origins of the Dravidian movement in the 20th century is strictly the invention of the British colonialists and their Christian missionary stooges, for their divide and rule colonial strategy. Do you deny that ?. Was there any Dravidian movement from the time of Sankara's usage of the word "Dravida" till the early 20th century ?.

It doesn't make sense to me to see Bakthi literature as a pre-cursor to the Dravidian political movement at all. I see the bakthi movement as an effort to be more inclusive to make the highest ideals of "jnanam" accessible to all Hindus. I see Buddha doing the same. So there is a long line of traditions within Bharata that makes the effort to be more inclusive than some of the Brahmanical spiritual traditions of exclusivity.

UNQUOTE

Now whatever the prior use of the term Dravidian, I think it was Bishop Caldwell who used it as a term to describe a family of languages in India such as Tamil Kannada Telugu and so forth and quite distinct from another family of languages called Indo-Aryan. From this we have the distinction between Dravidian speakers ( or Dravidians) and Indo-Aryan speakers ( or Indo Aryasns)

Now I challenge this linguistic dichotomy by claiming as you already know that even Sk Pali and so forth are variants of Sumerian the Archaic Tamil and therefore almost the whole of India is Dravidian or Dravidian speakers. This is the sense in which I use the term ”Dravidian”

( Here I take it that Sumerian is Archaic Tamil and the base language of Rg Pali etc as TRUTHS though not yet generally accepted by the scholarly community)

Now I am working for a NeoBakti Movement as part of what I call the Great Dravidian Movement that I have already explained. Now let me explain how I see the early Bakti movement and why I am right in saying this GDM is also a neobakti movement, assuming this is your question.

A number of features of Bakti movement that are implicit and we have to wrest out these from the events and literature,

1,

When the Kalabharas came and destroyed the CaGkam culture there were a few centuries of Darkness and when the Tamils emerged we have a totally different kind of literature – initially mostly ethical treatises including TirukkuRal and later the emergence of Bakti literature. This developed into a re-assertion of Tamil language as at that time Sk occuopied a dominant place among the Buddhists and Jains. Since it is a Tamil re-assertion, where all the verses composed were in Tamil it can also be called a Dramila/ Dravida re-assertion.

2.

Now this movement was simultaneously the recovery of the more ancient Bakti unto various deities as was available say, in CaGkam classic Paripadal and so forth. Due to the excessive influence of Buddhism and Jainsim the worship of Siva VishNu Ambal Muruka and so forth declined and the Bakti movement sought to recover it by actually battling with the Buddhists and Jains.

3.

Now this movement was simultaneously anti Brahmanical in the sense of not condoning the VarNa Dharma at all. The metaphysical understanding is that all human beings have already the Njaanam and hence irrespective of differences in birth – VarNas and Jatis, all can attain Moksa becoming an Adyar, a Bakta. The TurutoNdart tokai of Sundarar was a classic in this and which led Sekkizar in the 12 cent Ad to write the great Periya Puranam detailing the biography of all the 63 Nayamars where people of all walks of life are admitted as Nayanmars. There are verses like Appar’s : saattiram ootukinRa sazakkarkaal, koottiramum kulamum kondu en ceyviir? ( O! You who indulge in useless chatter on the Sastras, what will you do with your Gotras and Jaties?) Later many Siddhas entered into a direct criticism of the VarNas and jatis and which are quite well known and which also served as an input for the birth of the Dravidian movement in the 19th cent AD)

Now from the Bakti movement I also incorporate the following aspects to justify my calling it along with the Great Dravidian Movement also as Neobakti movement

Metathiesm of Bakti Literature

In coined this word to describe Agamism as not monotheistic plolytheistic but Metatheistic and by which I means BEING is One- Many ( eekan and aneekan as Manikkavasakar woukd put it). This notion is NOT available in Brahamanism understood here as that system that enshrines the monistic inquiry into Brahman . the sole absolute realoty ect. The monism does NOT allow this metatheism where the various archetypal forms become KaRpitham, simply mental constructions.

The following two verses one a Saivite and another VaiNavaite would explain what I mean:

Punita (Saivite)

nuulaRivu peesi nuzaivilaar tirika
niilamaNimidaRRaan niirmaiyee -- meel ulanta
ekkoolattu evvuruvaay et tavangkaL ceyvaarkkum
akkoolattu avviruvee yaam

Let those without deep insights continue with their vain chatter of bookish knowledge
For all those who worship with sincere devotion whatever deity and in whatever form
It is BEING-the-BLUE- Throated who appears as that deity and with those qualities

Namazvar (VaishNava)

avaravar tamatamatu aRivu aRi vakaivakai
avaravar iRaivar ena adi adaivarkaL
avaravar iRaiyavar kuRaivu ilar; iRaiyavar
avaravar vitivazi adaiya ninRanaree

BEING discloses Himself in numerous archetypal forms to accommodate the different capacities for understanding of the
people. And the people too will assume that that particular presentation of BEING is BEING itself and worship and attain
Him thus. And because each archetypal presentation is of the SAME BEING, there is nothing wrong in any of these
forms. Each individual is destined to attain BEING in his own way no matter what kind of archetypal presentation he may choose to worship.

>>

Once Metatheism becomes well entrenched as the essence of religious life there certainly will be greater tolerance and OPENNESS among the religious people.

But personally the most important element of Bakti revolt is the assertion of Individual FREEDOM or AUTONOMY by Appar with his immortal phrase “Naam yaarkkum kudi alloom” “ No one is subject to anyone” and that once a person closes on BEING(siva) he becomes more and more AUTONOMOUS as BEING(Siva) is fully autonomous.

Naam yaarkkum kudi alloom

This powerful assertion of the absolute AUTONOMY as a possibility for ALL, is a DENIAL of VarNa Dharma and at the same an assertion of the essentially Dravidian metaphysical understanding. I give below the first verse where you can read the whole Patikam at:

http://arutkural.tripod.com/tmcampus/appar-1.htm

>>>

naamaarkkung kudiyalloom namanai yanjcoom
narakattil idarpadoom nadalai illoom
eemaappoom piNiyaRiyoom paNivoo malloom
inbamee yennaaLun tunba millai
taamaarkkung kudiyallaat tanmai yaana
cangkaran cangkaveN kuzaiyoor kaatiR
koomaaRkkee naamenRum miiLaa aaLaayk
koymmlarcee vadi iNaiyee kuRukinoomee

No one is subject to anyone and we shall NOT fear the God of death
We shall not suffer fire of Hell and any kind of misfortunes
Forever in self dignity and free of ailments , we shall NOT submit to anyone
There is only happiness and no sufferings at all for
We have become totally people of unredeemable servitude to the King of Supreme Autonomy
Who wearing in one ear the brilliant white conch, appears as the Sangkaran, the redeemer of all
And have submitted ourselves to His FEET of fresh blossoms

>>>

Through The Great Dravidian Movement as a NeoBakti movement I hope to resuscitate this important metaphysical elucidation of Individual Autonomy and spread it not only among all the Hindus but also the whole world.

Loga(25-2-11)

Reply by Ramesh

[akandabaratam] Re: Questions for Dr.Loganathan- 2

Friday, February 25, 2011 5:38 AM

From:

"mrithak" <Paangloss@aol.com>

Add sender to Contacts

To:

akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com

Dear Dr.Loganathan,

You wrote:
<<< Now whatever the prior use of the term Dravidian, I think it was Bishop Caldwell who used it as a term to describe a family of languages in India such as Tamil Kannada Telugu and so forth and quite distinct from another family of languages called Indo-Aryan. From this we have the distinction between Dravidian speakers ( or Dravidians) and Indo-Aryan speakers ( or Indo Aryasns) >>>

I am glad you have referred to the scholarship of Bishop Caldwell who I do not respect. It is true that linguistics and social sciences have it's origins in the efforts of Christian missionaries who wanted to prove that "religion" is a universal phenomena except that the chrisitian religion is the "supreme" religion among all other religions of the world. You can learn more about this type of understanding in Dr. Balagangadhara Rao's work " Heathen in his blindness ".

In short, I don't depend on the missionary propaganda for understanding the issue of language families. For understanding linguistic THEORIES, I rely more on the many different perceptions of the main-stream linguists though I keep an open mind about it all.

<<< Now I challenge this linguistic dichotomy by claiming as you already know that even Sk Pali and so forth are variants of Sumerian the Archaic Tamil and therefore almost the whole of India is Dravidian or Dravidian speakers. This is the sense in which I use the term �Dravidian�>>>

I understand your use of the word Dravidian. Ancient India was "Dravidian" is the concocted view of Christian missionaries like Bishop Caldwell and the Colonial indologists. This theory of the early 1900's has been increasingly refuted that the modern indologists themselves and they have changed the phrase "Aryan Invasion" to "Aryan Migration ".

I recommend Edwin F. Bryant's work " The Quest for the Origins of Vedic Culture: The Indo-Aryan Migration Debate " (Oxford University Press, 2001) . This is a good work that is fair, impartial and exposes the weakness of the many of the for/against linguistic arguments .

<<< Through The Great Dravidian Movement as a NeoBakti movement I hope to resuscitate this important metaphysical elucidation of Individual Autonomy and spread it not only among all the Hindus but also the whole world. >>>

Thank you for the verses of Punita, Namazvar etc. I very much enjoy reading them and especially enjoy reading your interpretations of it.

Since most Hindus are devout, I think it would be a great idea of starting a Neo-bakthi movement. But it should be a Great Hindu Movement and should include the Brahmins.

As Manikkavasakar said BEING is one-many (eekan & aneekan) there are verses like that in the Vedas as well. Since you claim that the ancient Vedic Sanskrit is Rigrit, the Vedas are also part of your tradition.

Lord Buddha said his deep and beautiful philosophy of " paticca samupaada " (dependent co-arising) –

"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness ".

All these fabrications of language, varna, jati, class etc is nothing but a "requisite condition of consciousness " rooted in the ignorance of the TRUE BEING within all life forms.

I only say this because you are a Siva-baktha. If Lord Shiva took the form of a chandala in Benares to teach Sankaraacharya a lesson then I hope the same Lord Shiva takes the form of a Brahmin and comes to you to show you the divisive nature of your intellectual claims.

Let the neo-bakthi movement that you wish to start be free of all divisive sectarian views.

Sincerely,

Ramesh